Monitoring the Weather & Aviation with John Kosak

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A weekly podcast where we talk with people about the weather world, explore and discuss everything weather and the many things that connect to it, and have a little fun along the way. The podcast is hosted and produced by Kyle David, a meteorologist and digital science content producer based in New Jersey.

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Transcript

Kyle David 0:14

Hey everyone, and welcome to the Everything Weather Podcast, where we talk with people about the weather world, explore and discuss everything weather, and have a little fun along the way. I'm your host, Kyle David, and before we get into this episode of the Everything Weather Podcast, I have two quick notes, one regarding the guest of today's episode, and the other related to the podcast itself. I'll get into the latter note first. So if you have not listened to the 25th episode special that we did just last episode from this one, go and check it out. We recap some of the most fun, memorable, and insightful moments from the podcast, all from each of the previous 24 episodes that we've done leading up to the 25th episode special. A lot of fun talking about all of the different guests that we've had on or I've had on, and all of the different things that we've got to talk about along the way. But more importantly, the point I'm getting to with this is that I made an announcement about the upload schedule, and that is we are now doing it every other week. So the Everything Weather podcast will now be releasing new episodes every other Monday. So every other Monday, make sure you mark it on your calendar. From here on out, we'll be doing a new Everything Weather podcast. And that's just to space things better out on my end, since I'm a one-man crew doing the editing, the scripting, the planning, the recording, everything in between with the Everything Weather podcast to kind of give myself a little bit of breathing room. We're making it every other week. And that also brings you even better weather content, you know, podcast content related to everything about the weather and the people in it as well. And speaking of the people, the second final note before we get into this episode with John Kozak, and let me introduce him real quick. So John Kozak is a certified aviation manager in the aviation world, and he's also passionate about the weather. So he's connected his passion for the weather and his craft for aviation together in the business aviation world. We talk about that a lot more in the podcast episode. I'm not going to talk about that too much here because I want to make sure we get to that in the right order and not rush things. But one quick update I wanted to share about John is that after recording the conversation I had with him, uh, he had accepted a job as the manager of meteorology at Flexjet. So I wanted to make sure I note that before we get into the podcast because that was um after the recording was completed. So again, congratulations to John for being named the manager of meteorology at Flexjet. And it shouldn't affect the conversation too much because that is still within the realm of business aviation and aviation weather. Now, with all that out of the way and said, let's get into the episode. Today on the podcast, we're excited to have John Kozak. John is a certified aviation manager and air traffic management specialist with over 25 years of experience bridging weather and business aviation operations. He is also a participating member of the Friends and Partners in Aviation Weather Group, which brings professionals from the weather and aviation worlds together. Hey there, John, and welcome to the Everything Weather Podcast.

John Kosak 3:37

Hey, thanks, Kyle. Happy to be here.

Kyle David 3:40

Of course, we're looking forward to talking to you about your experiences in the weather and aviation world. But first, I've got a fun game for you. So these are both ranking games, one's weather themed, one's non-weather themed. We're gonna start with the non-weather themed one first. Rank these Michigan foods without knowing what comes next. So on a scale of one to five, one being the best, five being the worst. Starting off with pasties. So I'm gonna get five of these? Yes. And you won't know what comes next.

John Kosak 4:16

Put those in the middle.

Kyle David 4:19

But those at three?

John Kosak 4:21

Yeah. Okay. I've never been a huge fan of pasties, so it'll be interesting to see what comes next and what I rank over it or under. So one is the best and five is the the least? The least.

Kyle David 4:34

Alright, next up, another sweet item, Mackinac Island Fudge.

John Kosak 4:40

Oh, that's gotta be at least two. I'll see if there's anything else coming along that'll beat that, but yeah, fudge is gonna beat number two.

Kyle David 4:50

Okay, that's a good pick so far. It leaves the number one spot. We'll see where the other ones come out. Next one up is Detroit style pizza.

John Kosak 4:59

Okay. Detroit style pizza will go number one. Oh, okay. Oh, I'm a fan of the D dish, caramelized crust pizza. I love that stuff.

Kyle David 5:11

I will say I've not had Detroit style pizza yet. Is there a particular place that anybody who's visiting Detroit should visit?

John Kosak 5:21

I think the place that we went to before a Red Wings game, I want to say it was Buddies. All I remember is red and white checkerboard tablecloths and stuff like that. And it was like dive bar but pizza. It wasn't one of these chain restaurants or something like that. And it was just really good pizza.

Kyle David 5:44

You're making me crave some pizza. Alright, I'm gonna have to go check out those places and do a little more research on my own. But next one up, this one is not specific to Detroit. It's one that's known in New York, but it's very popular in Detroit and Michigan. Coney Island hot dogs.

John Kosak 6:04

Okay, I'll slide those in at number four. Yeah. Those are for the pasties.

Kyle David 6:11

So that leaves the number five spot for Big B coffee.

John Kosak 6:17

Oh, yeah, that'll be at number five. I'm not a coffee drinker. Okay. My family are all coffee drinkers and they love that stuff, but yeah, not a coffee drinker. I love my caffeine with carbonation in it. So I'm gonna have my ice cold coke or diet Dr. Pepper, whichever I'm in the mood for that day.

Kyle David 6:40

You do energy drinks or anything like that?

John Kosak 6:42

Not really. I've had a couple of them here and there, but I yeah, I'm not an energy drink person.

Kyle David 6:50

All right. You know what? I don't recommend the energy drinks as somebody who used them a lot in college. I've grown a distaste for them now, and they're not really that healthy.

John Kosak 7:01

So, yeah, back when I was in college, jolt cola.

Kyle David 7:07

I've heard of that, yes. My friends in a can. Yeah, my friend from uh South Jersey, he there's uh another regional soda there, but it's not energy related. But he mentioned jolt soda. So I've heard of jolt soda before. Yeah. So alright, that's an interesting ranking. Next one I have for you is rank these clouds without knowing what comes next. And this one we're starting off with cumulonimbus clouds, or those nice anvil clouds that you'd see with a good thunderstorm. Yeah. Number one already with cumulonimbus clouds. Okay. Next one up I put those down in number four. Okay. Oh like one end of the spectrum and then the other with the other two. Next one up we have serious clouds, those nice thin wispy clouds you'd see in the sky.

John Kosak 8:08

Yeah, boring number five.

Kyle David 8:11

That's a strong take there.

John Kosak 8:13

Yeah, that's I don't know. After Cumulus Nimbus, I was struggling to think of off the top of my head what else could be as much fun as one of those clouds, but let's see what you got.

Kyle David 8:26

This next one might be lenticular clouds. Okay.

John Kosak 8:31

Yeah, lenticular. We'll give those as a number two. Definitely want to stay away from those if you're flying.

Kyle David 8:39

What's the reason behind that?

John Kosak 8:41

Lenticular clouds. Those are the ones that you're gonna see over the tops of mountains. Hopefully I'm getting my clouds right. But uh yeah, those are turbulence. Those look like the uh little UFOs, little discs. I mean, that's basically where the air is changing directions. So yeah, you definitely want to avoid those.

Kyle David 9:02

So bad for flying, but good for watching. Yeah, definitely. Alright, so that leaves the number three spot for Cirostratus Clouds. Yeah, we'll just leave those in the middle. Alright, that's a pretty that's a pretty solid ranking. Alright, that's a good solid ranking there for clouds. And that wraps up our first fun section. We'll have a few more later on in our conversation, but let's get into talking about you and your experiences. So everybody I have on the podcast, I'd talk with them about their weather story. Now, in the weather business, we say the weather story, and we refer that as the day's weather, the week's weather, etc. But for the podcast, I refer to it as a chance for us to explore more about your interest in the weather, and then for your case, aviation as well, because you connect the two. So, John, tell me a little bit about your weather story and your aviation story. What got you interested in everything weather and aviation?

John Kosak 10:04

So we'll start with aviation because that kind of led to the other. When I was younger, I had a couple of uncles, both of them flew. One flew for fun, the other flew for business. Both were nice enough to take me up for quick rides at one point or another. The one I remember the most was the uncle who flew for business had a Cessna Mixmaster. That's one of those cool little airplanes that has an engine in the front and an engine in the back. So you've got engines facing in both directions, and one's pushing, one's pulling, thus the mix master name. And that was really cool to look at and then really fun to fly around in. And for a long time, I was doing other stuff and finally came back to aviation in 1990. Went up to Traver City, Northwestern Michigan College, started learning how to fly up there. Of course, there's two bays, and then Lake Michigan's right off to the west there. So every time you're getting ready to fly up there at the little general aviation terminal, they had a nice little weather station there where you could go up and print out the current weather charts and the weather information. And it was really cool because you could watch it too. The big windows faced west out of there. So you could watch the thunderstorms rolling in from the west or whatever type of weather was rolling in that day, and just keep printing out the charts and watching the weather change. And so, as somebody who was flying, you really need to know what the weather's going to be so that you can prepare for that. As a new pilot, it was one of those things where weather was going to determine real quickly whether or not I had the opportunity to fly on any given day. A little bit too much wind, and I was going to stay on the ground. If it was going to rain too hard and obscure the visibility, is going to stay on the ground, snow too much. You get the picture. So that was the time when I started to become more interested in weather, and because of where I was at, have a great deal of respect for it. 1991, early 1991 is when I got my private pilot's license. I was going to school to become a pilot. Ran out of money for the flying part, somewhere in the middle of commercial maneuvers. But had finished all the ground courses and stuff like that. Went back later and said, What can I do with all the knowledge, but none of the flight time? And that's when I got my dispatch license many years later in 1999. But yeah, that's went away from aviation and weather, I guess, for a little while there. And then came back in 1999 with that dispatch license. And that's when I started working my first job in aviation. So that's the aviation weather start story and how I got going on that.

Kyle David 13:12

That's a very interesting story. And I'm curious to learn a little bit more what a dispatcher does. Talk a little bit about the connection between aviation and weather, but nobody who's had the experience in the aviation world. So that said, what does a dispatcher do and how are they monitoring conditions to make air travel safe?

John Kosak 13:35

So depending on what part of aviation you're in. So we have the general aviation, which usually is part 91, federal aviation regulations. We have the business aviation, which is some part 91 and part 135. And then you have the commercial or part 121 world. And I'm oversimplifying it, but you get the picture. Right now, commercial is the only place where a licensed dispatcher is required. And they are a part of the decision-making process for every flight. So anytime you get on a commercial flight, whether it's United Delta, JetBlue, whoever, there's been a dispatcher who has looked at the route of flight and checked the weather along that route to flight, and has decided on the route of flight, whether it's a direct route or they're going to go north around some weather, south around some weather, maybe they're going to depart a little bit later, those sorts of things. How much fuel they're going to take for that, all those neat little details are going to be completed by the dispatcher and then handed off to the pilot. Technically, the dispatcher actually has operational control. They do not supersede the pilot. The pilot obviously has the end-all, be all operational control of every single flight. But in the commercial world, the dispatcher is part of that process. They're going to follow the flight from start to finish. If something changes throughout that flight, they can call the crew and say, hey, I suggest you do this. The crew could call the dispatcher and say, hey, we're seeing this from the air. What are you seeing from the ground? That sort of thing. So it's a huge responsibility and a huge part of the every single flight. In the 135 world and even the 91 world, a dispatcher sometimes called a scheduler as well. Scheduler dispatcher can have the same responsibilities, can do the same things, can perform the same tasks. It's just not a requirement. But what you're going to find these days is a lot of the more safety conscious operations are going to have licensed dispatchers, not because they're required, but because it's a really good idea.

Kyle David 16:08

So, in a way, they're helping provide pilots with an additional perspective because they can see things from the ground level. You guys in the air traffic control tower would be monitoring things from the ground level and other perspectives that the pilot may not see.

John Kosak 16:25

Well, uh we're not in the air traffic control tower. Like mushrooms, we're usually in dark, damp rooms. But yeah, we're an extra set of eyes, we're an extra brain to work with the crews to try and get them more information than what they might have access to just sitting in the pointy end of that airplane. You mentioned air traffic controllers, so what they have access to in the tower is different than what the en route facilities are looking at, or the traycons are looking at. Every step of the air traffic control place has something different that they're looking at weather-wise. And so it's just one more person to add to the mix. And the benefit of the dispatcher is I've probably got better weather tools than the person sitting on the flight deck or the person sitting in the tower. They all have one view. I might have all of the views, which is great.

Kyle David 17:31

Now I'm curious, does your desk look like uh six monitor setup, or you got giant screen TV that has all the different windows up for information?

John Kosak 17:42

It depends on your operation, but I've usually got two screens up and numerous tabs open on different screens with different uh weather tools that I'm looking at at any given time, whether I'm looking at forecasts versus current observations versus radar satellite pictures. You can get so much more on the ground than you can in the air or necessarily in the tower.

Kyle David 18:11

There's a wealth of information out there, not just weather, but also aviation stuff as well. And before we get into exploring that a little bit more and the day in the life of somebody in your role, I want to talk a little bit about how you got started. Because you had mentioned that you were going to be a pilot, but because you ran out of funds, you decided to stop that, but you were able to go into being able to become a dispatcher, an aviation manager. So I'm curious how you eventually got your first role in the aviation world.

John Kosak 18:50

So it was funny. After I got my dispatch certificate, at that point, the only thing I knew about really was the airline world. So I started looking for airline jobs, and of course, you have to start out at the bottom of the ladder, just like being a pilot. And they want you to start at one of the express or regional carriers first. I was throwing all my resumes at different places. I finally got somebody from one of the majors on the phone, and they're like, Oh, you have to do our express. And it this just happened to be United at the time. They're like, Yeah, you need to put in some time at Express. I'm like, okay, so you know what does that pay? And they're like, it's $8.38 an hour. And this is back in 1999, so that was okay money, but I'm like, that's in Chicago, right? They're like, Yeah. I'm like, I'd driven through Chicago once or twice at that point in my life and remembered that there were tolls everywhere. And no different now, by the way. I was just thinking, do you guys have like a uh barracks or something right there at the airport that people can stay at? Because I don't know how I'm gonna afford to drive to work every day on that kind of money. And then I was looking through a magazine, and there was an ad for a private aviation company, and it had a 216 area code, which was the Cleveland area code where I was living at the time. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. This is this, I think is in my backyard. And it turned out to be an ad for a fractional aviation company right there in Cleveland, Ohio. At the time it was called Flight Options. Now it's called Flexjet, but I remember going, well, I didn't even know this was an option, and put in my resume and a couple weeks later started working at Flight Options, December of '99. And that was where I got started.

Kyle David 20:51

Now I'm curious because you had mentioned that this was a fractional aviation company. What's the difference between that and one that is not fractional?

John Kosak 21:01

So a fractional aircraft company, I think timeshare condos, but with airplanes. So instead of buying your own airplane, you buy a share of an aircraft. The people that started that the very first were net jets. Their call sign is actually quarter share. That was the most popular size of share that they sold. Nowadays, you can buy a whole jet, you can buy half a share, you can buy an eighth of a share, all kinds of stuff. Now you can buy jet cards where um you've got like a gift card, but with hours on an airplane. You can just straight up charter an aircraft. So you know, you get lucky when the lottery or something like that, and you want to have a really good time, you charter an aircraft one time and you're done. Or you can buy your own aircraft and have somebody manage it for you. So there's a ton of different ways to go through the general aviation or business aviation part of it. There's all kinds of cool ways to own or own a portion of or be part of the business aviation community.

Kyle David 22:15

That's interesting. I've heard a little bit about like the timeshares with condos and stuff and it made me think about it being referenced on an old TV show. But I want to talk a little bit about those shares and you've had a whole bunch of different people working and a whole bunch of different people that you were working with. Have there been any interesting clients that you've had or an interesting client story that you have with these fractional aviation experiences?

John Kosak 22:41

That's part of the thing of business aviation is it's private and you don't really talk about the people that you work with. What I'll tell you is that there's some fun stories and then there's some it's just like any business you have people that you'd rather not deal with and then you have people that are really fun neat people to bump into and you're like geez they don't seem like some rock star super cool person they're just really down to earth and really nice when you know nobody else is around and but it's fun because you get to meet some really cool people then there's companies that use their aircraft as a shuttle so they will shuttle people from one city to another and it allows people to live in a less expensive place and work in a more expensive place. So in New York's a good example but we had a customer that would every morning they had a shuttle that went from where they were based about an hour outside of New York they would fly everybody up into Teterborough drop them off go back to the base and then that evening they would go back up to Teterborough pick people up and come back to the base and it was a regular old CRJ but it was all business configuration right so you had a 26 seat aircraft instead of a 50 seat aircraft and it was nice and comfortable for the people flying back and forth. But it was actually less expensive than if they were going to depending on who needed to go to New York that day try to put them on an airline because they weren't in a city that would have direct access. They would have had to fly to somewhere like Detroit or Chicago or Charlotte and then up to New York. So doing that was cool. Let me think so it wouldn't be unheard of for us to fly an aircraft with no people in it but pets right so we're flying somebody's pets from their home to their vacation place. We were talking about Detroit style pizza before it wouldn't be the first time we had somebody who was in Chicago and wanted New York style pizza so that's not 30 minutes or less but darned if they didn't get their New York style pizza in Chicago or Chicago style pizza anywhere else in the country and it's people like that and you're like I wish I had that kind of money it's neat to see that stuff and say yeah we sent pizza who's riding on the airplane just the crew just the crew and then the crew's probably about some of that good pizza too order two of them because one of them's going to be gone by the time we get where we're going I wouldn't blame them. Was there one that surprised you the most probably the first time I was in the business and heard about the pizza flight I was like really after that there wasn't a whole lot that really surprised me.

Kyle David 25:56

By chance do you remember what the pizza place was?

John Kosak 25:59

No I don't this would have been back in the early naughts so yeah so it was a New York pizza yeah I guess that kind of speaks on the desirability of New York pizza just desire of pizza in general and the people who are involved with it.

Kyle David 26:20

A lot of fun though and we got a lot more fun experiences to talk about but I want to talk a little bit more about the typical responsibilities the day in the life of a dispatcher and an air aviation manager. And since you have over 25 years of experience and you have a lot of experience with other companies is there if you could what would you describe as the typical day to day for somebody in your role as an aviation manager and dispatcher well so that's the other wonderful thing about business aviation there's so many different versions of it there is no standard day.

John Kosak 26:59

It all depends on exactly which function you're fulfilling depends on the size of the company. At the smaller company you may be doing all of the roles so you might be the logistics person who's responsible for getting the crews to and from the aircraft that they're going to fly on. So let's say they fly the customer from somewhere in Michigan down to somewhere in Florida and then that customer's going to stay there for a week or longer but the pilots live up in Michigan. So we're going to fly them home back to Michigan and then back down to Florida to pick the aircraft and the passengers up again and bring them back to Michigan. We're just going down for the weekend we're going to put them up in a hotel and take care of them. So you can get them in a rental car, that sort of thing. So you've got the logistics person, you've got the scheduler who's going to decide which crew goes with which aircraft based on what they're checked out in, where their training is that sort of thing. What kind of aircraft the passengers required or requested so the dispatcher is going to look at the weather and other things ahead of time you might get a schedule months in advance you might get it the same day but you're going to look at where's this person going? What are they trying to do when they get there? Are they going for a business meeting? Are they going for visit a son or a daughter at college? All kinds of different reasons that they could be traveling for maybe they own shares in different types of aircraft do they need a small one for this it's just them they're taking the whole family so they're taking a larger cabin aircraft if it's an international flight was it nice easy one going to Canada and back or is it something a little more complicated like going to Europe so there's all kinds of things that you can do. And so as a MBAA certified aviation manager I've had the opportunity to do a lot of those different things manage the operations side manage the HR side manage the maintenance manage the business side of it. So the different things from small 25 aircraft operations all the way up to being part of managing much larger operations 200 plus aircraft that sort of thing so you know it's one of those things where you're even as a manager you might be a small cog on a very large wheel it's just a matter of trying to get everybody to work together to pull off that trip that the passenger has requested and you had mentioned your NBAA certified can you talk a little bit more about that what that is and what your role has been over the last 25 plus years in that so I was lucky enough to work for the NBAA the National Business Aviation Association out at the FAA Command Center that was after seven and a half years working for Flight Options now Flexjet and that was really a lot of fun. So out at the FAA Command Center we're really in the heart of everything you have the towers the traycons the in-route centers they're all trying to make sure that the aircraft stay separated stay safe the command center is the place that puts it all together. They're worried about the flows so if there's a backup in New York they're reaching out to the in-route centers between say Chicago and New York or Florida and New York and saying hey we need to slow traffic down a little bit we need to space it out a little bit more we need to work around these weather systems if they're parked over Washington how are we going to get to Florida or New York I have to go around that weather up through Cleveland Center and now we're putting more traffic in Cleveland Center is just like losing lanes on the highway right stuff starts to back up and if it gets shut down enough you have to take the traffic off of that highway and put it somewhere else on the side roads our job out there at the command center was to help our customers in the business aviation community understand what was going on in the national airspace system where those pinch points might be whether it might be weather related space launch related volume staffing all kinds of different things that could gum up the works in the national airspace system and so it every day was different. But that was the opportunity at that point to put together everything that I had learned working for a decent sized operation. So flight options was 200 plus aircraft when I left after working there for seven and a half years and had worked all the different positions logistics, scheduler dispatcher that we talked about. And then of course weather and over the years weather represented probably 70% of the delays in the national airspace system. So as you may imagine that was one of the big things hopefully I'm not getting ahead of myself here but because of my weather nerdiness coming in the door my boss at the time said hey I'm going to put you on the FAA collaborative decision making weather evaluation team or wet for short but this was a group of people from the aviation industry who were looking at ways to make better convective forecast products was our main goal main mission for that particular team trying to use the tools that we had available to help the air traffic managers make the national airspace system safer and more efficient by having a better idea of where convective weather was going to pop how long it was going to last how severe it was going to be how impactful it was going to be that sort of thing additionally after that's when I first got into the friends and partners in aviation weather and that was an opportunity for um those of us in the greater aviation weather community to come together and figure out what was going on. So users of aviation weather producers of aviation weather researchers engineers people who oversaw the regulatory standards and policies and stuff like that so National Weather Service Aviation Weather Center the FAA research schools that sort of thing and then of course the airlines business aviation people like myself just an opportunity for everybody to come together and say this is where we're at this is where we need to be and for the longest time they would get together twice a year fall spring and have meetings day and a half two days where they would get together and say here's what I'm seeing in the system who can help me fix it. Then we would get presentations from other groups about here's what we've done here's what we think needs to be done all those really cool things and just a fantastic opportunity to get everybody together and do that sort of thing.

Kyle David 34:54

And you have mentioned a whole bunch of things like FPA the collaborative decision making team that you are involved with at the FAA. Before we get too deep into that we're going to take a quick break right here but don't go anywhere we've still got more Everything Weather podcast with John Kozak coming up in just a second weather history we remember the devastating Oaklawn tornado outbreak of April 21st 1967 which unleashed a catastrophic wave of tornadoes across the Midwest. Unseasonably warm moist air surged into the central Midwest ahead of a strong low pressure system with Dew Point climbing into the 60s on the day of the outbreak. Combined with strong upper level winds and significant wind cheer conditions were ripe for a major tornado outbreak for the Midwest. The first tornado struck at around 9 a.madoes had touched down near Kansas City and St. Joseph at 220pm an F3 tornado tore through Ray and Carroll counties followed by a powerful F-4 tornado that tracked over 58 miles between Sumner and Newark Missouri destroying homes and bars along its erratic path recognizing the extreme risk the U.S. Weather bureau issued a tornado watch at 150 p.m for parts of Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa and Indiana including the cities of Chicago and Milwaukee. By 3 pm over a dozen tornadoes had touched down at 350 p.m an F-4 tornado struck Belvidere, Illinois leveling the Chrysler plant and over 120 homes. Tragically it hit Belvidere High School as students were leaving for the day, killing 13 and injuring 300 there alone around 5 p.m another F-4 tornado hit Fox River Grove, North Barrington and Lake Zurich, destroying homes, a school and a factory one person died and over 100 were injured from this tornado. At 524 pm the deadliest tornado of the day formed near Moraine Valley Community College and carved a 16 mile path through Oakland hometown and Evergreen Park at 60 miles an hour. It killed 16 people stuck in rush hour traffic destroyed parts of the Oaklawn High School and a grocery store as well as tossing buses from a bus garage onto buildings. The storm continued through Chicago's south side flipping vehicles on the Dan Ryan Expressway before becoming a water sprout over Lake Michigan. The same storm likely spawned another F4 tornado near Lansing, Michigan and an F3 tornado through Grand Rapids, Michigan. Tornadoes continued into the night finally tapering off near midnight. In total the outbreak produced 45 tornadoes killed 58 people injured over 1,400 and caused damages exceeding $56 million over $500 million in 2025. The Oaklawn tornado remains one of only six F4 F5 tornadoes ever recorded in the Chicago area since its settlement. In the days after snow and freezing temperatures complicated cleanup and recovery efforts across the Chicago area. But the disaster also spurred major improvements in tornado forecasting warning systems and public safety also laying the foundation for today's National Weather Service and the Skywarn spotter network and welcome back to the Everything Weather podcast. I'm your host Kyle David and today on the podcast we've been talking with John Kosak. He's a certified aviation manager and air traffic management specialist with over 25 years of experience bridging the world of weather and business aviation and we've been talking a little bit about his experiences we're going to continue that conversation but first I've got another fun game for you John so this is keep for cut five of these airports across the US I'm going to give you nine airports you can keep for cut five based on preference of travel how they're designed it's all up to you on how you want to keep and cut these nine different airports. So on the list we have Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta International Airport Los Angeles International Airport or LAX Dallas Fort Worth International Airport or DFW Denver International Airport or DEN O'Hare International Airport near Chicago JFK Airport in New York City Orlando International in Florida or MCO Harry Reid International Airport which is just outside of Las Vegas LAS or Newark Liberty International Airport or EWR in New Jersey I gotta keep four keep four cut five so the four that you keep get to be spared the other five disappear off the map literally or figuratively Newark's going away that's and JSK I'm sorry but there's just if I can avoid it I'm not flying into the New York area.

John Kosak 40:48

If I don't have to Denver yep same thing other than a connection Denver is a wonderful place but for an airport no and Atlanta I'm going to ditch that one too although that's a tough one I'm keeping LAX because it's one of the best spotting airports. There's so many different places around that airport where you can go and get great pictures of arriving and departing aircraft you can stand under arriving A380s 747s and other massive aircraft go up on the hill and get pictures of them arriving and departing that's just fun. Dallas Fort Worth has a nice little area where you can watch aircraft too so I'm keeping that one O'Hare just because if I have to connect that's going to be my preferred connection airport you can go almost anywhere in the world from O'Hare. So I would keep that one I live in a spot not too far from the Northbrook VOR so when the big aircraft are coming in or going out they have a tendency to fly right over my place here.

Kyle David 41:57

The last one is Vegas because Vegas baby all right so you're cutting Atlanta Denver Newark and then also JFK and Orlando. I'm cutting five right yes so Atlanta Denver Orlando JFK and Liberty International all get the boot I don't blame you about cutting Newark because of the amount of times I've had to fly into and out of Newark I don't want to do that. Although I would do that over JFK LaGuardia as somebody who lives in New Jersey. So alright so on the list stays LAX Dallas Fort Worth DFW or O'Hare International OR D and Las Vegas Harry Reid International Airport. Before we get back into our conversation you talked a little bit about taking pictures of airplanes and I'm curious what are some tips for people who want to photograph planes aviation craft or anything of the sort so yeah if you want to do that sort of thing you probably want to find a group in your area that does that sort of thing.

John Kosak 43:15

Chicago has I think it's called something watch or hair watch or something like that. But if you search for them you'll find them real quick there's a large group of people out there who love taking pictures of airplanes and that sort of thing. What I would tell you is that some people get a little nervous about people pointing cameras at aircraft and depending on where you're doing it you might get the kind of attention that you don't want. When I first moved to Virginia I was trying to take pictures of aircraft coming and going at Dulles and the DC area has lots of unmarked buildings shall we say unmarked cars. They're important but you don't Know why, just because so I remember trying to take pictures one night, and within about 30 seconds of me arriving there, I was joined by a state trooper, and he just asked me a lot of questions about what I was doing. I told him I was new to the area, all that fun stuff. And he's like, Okay, I'm gonna leave now. He says, You should too, or the next people that show up will be in a black, unmarked sedan, and they will probably be less friendly. So I'm like, okay, cool. And that's when I started reaching out to the local folks to find out where were good places to hang out and how do I let people know that I am not a danger to what's going on. And that's just really the trick. Chicago Hare actually has a and Midway have a pretty vibrant community here. I just haven't had the time to join it, but they have worked with the airports and get access that you couldn't get on your own and tell you where it's okay to take pictures from, that sort of thing. DC, I was out there, had a great group that gave you the number to call for operations when you were trying to take pictures on Dulles property. And once you did that, they were like, Hey, cool, thanks for letting us know you're there, and now we won't worry about you. So that's my biggest piece of advice. After that, you can get really carried away with it. You can get really nice cameras, you can get really nice lenses, that sort of thing. You can do it with a point and shoot. Uh, it just depends on what you want to do with those uh pictures when you're done with them. If it's just for fun, then grab your point and shoot. And geez, these days a phone will get you a decent picture, depending on how close you are to the aircraft. But if you're at the in and out in LAX and standing there, a cell phone will work just fine when an A380 rolls over the top of you. So, yeah, all kinds of fun stuff.

Kyle David 46:01

Wow, that's a story. So State Trooper says you should go before less friendly people, maybe the men in black, show up and card you off.

John Kosak 46:13

Yeah, they'll they'll ask you to leave not so politely. I actually got a visit from the FBI a week later, which was interesting. And once they came inside my apartment and saw that I had airplanes on all the walls and everything else like that, and saw my FAA control center hat that I had from my job and everything, that they're like, Oh, okay, yeah, this guy's harmless.

Kyle David 46:35

So they're like, oh yeah, he just likes airplanes. Reason nerd. No fun for us. Yeah. I still can't get over that story. Wow, but those are some good tips for anybody who wants to get into the aviation photography world and not be pursued by the men in black or the FBI. Like, yeah, it's uncomfortable, unnecessary. Get into an uncomfortable jam or pickle with the federal government. But let's go back to our conversation about you and your experiences in the business aviation world, because there were a lot of things we touched upon in the first half that I'd love to explore a little more in the second half. But first, we talked a little bit about you connecting your passion for the weather and then also aviation as well. I'm curious, what are some of the most rewarding and challenging weather experiences in your business aviation or aviation management experience?

John Kosak 47:45

A couple of the rewarding ones were so out at the FAA Command Center, of course, I got to work with the National Air Traffic Control Association or NACA professionals. These were the people who made the decisions about the ground delay programs, ground stops, airspace flow programs, rerouts, those sorts of things. Really, the people who came in from facilities across the country. This was a top-tier facility. But these folks came in and used their knowledge of regional areas and local areas to help run the national airspace system. Every year they have an event called Communicating for Safety. It's all of them getting together and talking about how they can make the national airspace system safer. One year I had the opportunity to go out and participate in a panel about how everybody sees weather. The people in the tower see weather one way, and they can literally see it out the window, unless they're fogged in. But then they've got monitors where they can see certain weather products. The Tracon or Terminal Radar folks can see a different type of weather product. And then the in-root people can see a different type of weather product. So they're not necessarily all looking at the same weather product. And then the pilots, the commercial folks might have some nice G Wiz stuff, but the business aviation folks might have even nicer stuff. Whereas the folks in the bug smashers, the 172s, the little airplanes might be lucky if they have the out the window version. It was really neat to talk about everybody's different perspectives. So we had somebody from commercial, we had people from obviously the ATC side of it, myself representing business aviation, but it was just really great to have the opportunity to represent business aviation in a setting like that where everybody was focused on hey, what are the differences? Why am I getting this feedback from a pilot when I'm seeing this on my screen? What's going on with that? And so that's really eye-opening. Another opportunity was to present the business aviation community for a forum on PyREPS pilot reports to the NTSB, the National Transportation Safety Board, that we've been hearing a lot about lately, unfortunately. But doing that. Some of the more challenging stuff, training our customers about weather in general, and then severe weather, especially. Hurricanes are not fast moving events, right? They're something that we can usually see coming a ways in advance, but trying to get people to understand that just because they're slow moving doesn't mean that they're not dangerous. How is a hurricane going to impact your operation? What kind of path of devastation is it going to leave? Do you have a plan for getting people out of the way, getting property out of the way? People, property, and then what's your recovery after the event happens? So doing that, making sure people are aware of all the different tools that they have at their fingertips to make sure that uh they have the opportunity to see things coming in advance. That was always the challenging part, the education portion.

Kyle David 51:44

And I'm curious because you've gotten a lot of opportunities to meet different people, get different perspectives. Was there a question or a set of questions that you were asked that they were challenging to answer, or then maybe there's one that was fun to answer?

John Kosak 52:10

Because I'm such a weather nerd, it almost everything was always fun to answer. Not so much challenging, because everything for me was an opportunity then to educate somebody, right? Maybe the thunderstorm stuff sometimes was a bit challenging from the standpoint of you see these really smart people who unfortunately don't want to acknowledge that they have limitations. We've had astronauts who've flown into thunderstorms and died, and so you want to try and figure out how to communicate to everybody that this is something that you need to pay attention to. One of the problems with having all the G Wiz weather, even on the flight deck, I could be looking at an iPad with what I think is the latest weather, but latency is the biggest problem to get people to understand. There we go. So getting people to understand latency, which is the picture that I'm looking at on my iPad, may seem like it's fresh, but first of all, it took the radar facility minutes, not seconds, minutes to paint that picture. Then it had to get processed, then it had to get uplinked to my iPad on the flight deck. So what am I looking at here? I could be looking at something that's five to fifteen minutes old. If we're talking about thunderstorms, particularly lines of thunderstorms, we could be talking about something that's moving at 30, 45, 60 miles an hour, right? So if I have something that's 15 minutes old, that data is good from the standpoint of I see that there's thunderstorms, but it's bad from the point of it's not actually showing me exactly where that is. So if I'm trying to shoot a gap in between some cells, that gap may no longer be there. And we've had significant issues with crews trying to do that and getting caught in hail that's getting chucked out the top of the cells. So as getting wings ripped off of a small aircraft is no joke. You've got updrafts and downdrafts that can quite literally tear an airplane apart. Latency, looking at the radar products and being able to understand it. This is a great picture, but that's all it is. It's a snapshot of time. And it could be five minutes old, it could be 15 minutes old. If depending on the product, it could be older than that. So you just you have to pay attention to what's going on around you. You have to know what's going to happen before you get into the flight deck. And again, that's why having dispatchers in the part 121 or commercial side of it is a huge advantage because now you've got somebody on the ground who's got that they're looking at updated weather more quickly than what you're gonna get in the flight deck, and they can see all the traffic around you, right? I can pull up flight radar or flight aware or ADSB exchange or any number of different flight following things, and companies may have their own proprietary ones that they use as well for that are satellite-linked and that sort of thing. But now I can see the other 5,000 aircraft in the national airspace system, and I can see the areas that they're avoiding, maybe because of turbulence, icing, severe weather, space launch debris, all kinds of fun stuff like that.

Kyle David 56:08

And going back to your you talking about the latency between the data getting taken and then you getting the data, that's something that's not has not really been discussed on the podcast before from all different industries from broadcast to communications. And that's definitely something that should be considered when talking about the weather, because hey, these things take a few minutes to get to the meteorologist, and then they have to also disseminate that as well, break down what is being shown on that product, that radar scan, that that satellite image, and on that note to explore a little bit more of the products that you use. What are some other weather products that you use to help you with your job? And how do you take all that information and boil it down in a way that people in the aviation world can understand and take action?

John Kosak 57:01

Some of my favorite tools are uh all National Weather Service tools, right? I'm gonna start at the Weather Prediction Center, surface fronts and sea level pressures, and that just gives me a wonderful outlook throughout the week. It gives me a day and a half, two days and a half of decent weather slices, shows me where the fronts, the lows, the highs, and stuff like that are going to be going, the basic weather, that sort of thing. The next picture that I like looking at is the Storm Prediction Center page and the convective outlooks. Day one, two, three. They've actually got right now, the end of this week, could be hairy. Again, I look at that and it gives me the opportunity to see where the severe weather might pop later in the week. The weather prediction center also has winter weather tools, depending on the time of the year. I can go back and forth between those. On top of that, my singular most favorite tool at this point is really going to be the Aviation Weather Center. So aviationweather.gov. From there, I can start with the observations, which is our weather right now. I have the opportunity to look at a picture of what's going on. Beyond that, I can look at the graphical forecast for aviation, GFA forecast, ceilings, invisibility, clouds, precipitation, thunderstorms, temperature, winds, turbulence, icing, all the really important stuff that I need to think about for aviation. And I can look at it at different levels throughout the atmosphere from the surface to the flight level 450, 45,000 feet. I can go forward and backward in time. I can zoom in and out on the map. So many great tools. And this is the next step that we've gone to. When I first got started, we had the text-based aviation weather forecast, and they would string together a whole bunch of VORs and distances and directions from VORs. And you had to try and picture in your head where the heck are they talking about? And now I can see it, right? I don't have to figure out where the Northbrook VOR is. Because if you don't know that off the top of your head, and then you have to figure out where's 20 miles southwest of that, does that include Chicago O'Hare or Chicago O'Hare outside of that? Am I capturing O'Hare, but not midway, but not O'Hare? So there's all kinds of benefits to this graphical forecast for aviation. And on the aviation weather page, they've put together so many of the tools that used to be in different places. So that's one great place. There's another one called Tropical Tidbits, and this is just somebody who is another weather expert. The primary impetus behind this page, I believe, was tracking hurricanes and that sort of stuff. But this is a wonderful tool for all kinds of things, all kinds of weather. And it's one of the tools that gives you access to the European model, which is nice. So that's another place where you can go and get a lot of different types of weather, look at different regions, go in and stuff like that. A tool that I have personally subscribed to on occasion, Weather Bell. I don't know if you're familiar with that one or not, but for a long time I subscribed to that because the level of detail on their maps was extraordinary. And there's other ones out there that you can get into, different ones that different levels of weather that you can find for that. But those are some of the few that off the top of my head, those are the ones that I like. And again, it's I'm starting with the long-term stuff just to make sure that nothing jumps out and startles me when we get to the day of or the night before, looking at the next 24 hours. Again, the GFA 17 to 24 hours in advance lets me see through the following morning. And then when I wake up, I can see late into the afternoon and that sort of thing.

Kyle David 1:01:26

Honestly, there could be a whole podcast episode on the amount of different weather resources out there. Tropical tidbits, I will say, is a phenomenal one. Shout out to Dr. Levi Cohen, who's the person who runs that website, it's all free. I'm not sponsored, I'm not sponsored by him or anything. I'm just, I love that website. And as somebody who has been passionate about the weather since a young age, that's been a phenomenal website to go and check out. And I'll link that in the show notes for anybody who wants to go and check that out. But on the note of taking all these tools and helping it to get a picture of what's going on now and what will happen with the weather, it it helps you with the decision-making process. And I actually want to segue now into your work with the collaborative decision-making weather evaluation team, or as you said, wet. And I'm curious what is that team all about and how do they take all these tools, the things you've mentioned, and get an even better comprehensive picture of what is going on and what will happen?

John Kosak 1:02:30

So if anybody's been in aviation or they've been around for a while, back when I started on that team in about 2008-2009, the primary air traffic management convective weather tool was called the Convective, the Collaborative Convective Forecast Product, or CCFP. At that time, it was a two-layer thing, and it painted a very broad picture of where they were expecting significant convective weather at the two, four, and six-hour mark. And one of the things that the wet was tasked with was trying to make that product better. And the big one of the issues that we had was we had to, we were limited in, we couldn't just make a brand new product because this product was being displayed on the traffic situation display or TSD at the FAA command center and FAA facilities throughout the country. So we were limited to colors and textures that we already had available on the TSD if we wanted to make any changes. So the first thing that we did do was we scrapped it and we went away from the 246 and tried to go towards an event-based product. It was the collaborative aviation weather statement or cause. And it was a great idea, just didn't work real well because it basically you would have had to have the commercial people, the National Weather Service people, and the air traffic managers all just staring at a board and waiting for something to happen. If nobody was looking at the board when something happened, you might miss it, that sort of thing. So after I think it was a year or two, we'd scrap that and went back to the CCFP. Now there was another tool that we were using um at the time, or that the air traffic managers had access to. So this was the quarter integrated weather system or CWIS CIWS, and then so that covered the zero to two hour time frame. So now we were looking at what we can do at the four, six, and eight-hour time frames. And so we started looking again and got rid of some of the broad brush information that the CCFP used to have. So they used to have two colors. You'd have a gray and a blue. And the gray was the we're not really sure about it. The blue was high confidence, really pretty certain that we were going to be seeing something in that area. And so we've came up with the idea and said, let's just get rid of the low confidence stuff. It was like somebody was taking a paint, you would cover half the country with this gray area. And it wasn't helping anybody make a decision because they were just looking at that and going that covers everything. So we said, why don't we we'll just take the blue and we'll move forward with that? And that turned into the traffic flow management convective forecast TCF for short. So now if you go to the Aviation Weather Center and you go to that product, you're going to see the TFM Convective Forecast products. So you're going to get a snapshot at four, six, and eight hours, and it's going to be sparse, medium, or a line, right? Sparse coverage is we're really expecting there to be holes in between storms that we can go to. So if I have a sparse coverage area that covers half of a center, I'm not too worried about it because I'm still going to have places in that center where I can go, right? Medium, we're probably going to end up routing most of the traffic around an area of medium and line. Definitely, we're going to be routing people around. We're not expecting any holes at all in that situation. And so over the years, what we did was refine that CCFP. So we went from having low confidence areas that covered half the country to high confidence areas that covered much less than that. But if they did end up being larger areas and say medium coverage, now you knew that was going to be an impactful event. So it was really cool to be part of that whole process. Because again, we had a lot of commercial representation. I was the lone business person on that. National Weather Service FAA. We had somebody from the en route group that was with us on a numerous occasions to help us understand how they were using that tool to make the decisions to get to a point where are we going to need an aerospace flow program? Are we going to need ground delay programs? Are we just going to need reroutes to get people around that area of weather? That was the major focus of the team for the 10 years that I was on it.

Kyle David 1:08:31

Wow, a lot of different products you've got to work with. And I've learned that there's a lot of acronyms in the aviation world and also the broader government world. I want to take this moment to mention you have a certificate in meteorology from Penn State University. And I'm curious, how has that helped you? Can you talk about that a little more? And how has that helped you with your experiences with those teams, those collaborative efforts, and then your experiences in the aviation world?

John Kosak 1:08:58

Absolutely. I was looking for a way to get more weather knowledge. Those were my electives the first time I was in school, and then going back, I was trying to figure out if I could do my meteorology degree online. And that was a little bit more than what I ended up wanting at the time. Being a math-challenged individual, wasn't sure that I was going to be able to accomplish all of the math involved with the meteorology degree. But Penn State University has this amazing online weather certificate program. It's four full semesters of intense meteorology stuff. You start off with understanding weather forecasting, then the fundamentals of tropical forecasting, fundamentals of mesoscale weather forecasting, and finally advanced topics in weather forecasting is your 400-level course where you actually put it all together, part of that semester, actually forecasting weather. And there's a weather forecasting contest that's been going on for years, apparently. And you put your money where your mouth is, as it were, and go up against not only your classmates, but people from across the country at all the different meteorology schools, including your professor. I'm happy that I beat my professor once on a forecast. It is a fantastically well put together online course. The professors who facilitate it, of course, very knowledgeable, but then also very good at how they present the course and how they work with people who aren't in a classroom, right? So you can email them, call them, contact them, but it's just a fantastic product. And if that gave me just enough knowledge to be dangerous, right? So I'm not a degreed meteorologist, but it made it so that I could have legit discussions with the degree meteorologists on the teams, whether they it was the wet team that we're talking about or the FPA community that we've talked about as well, and get their respect, ask the right questions, ask knowledgeable questions, present good information for the people that I represent. So yeah, I can't. If you don't want to go for four years to get a meteorology degree, but you want really good weather knowledge base, I can't say enough good things about that forecasting certificate program at Penn State.

Kyle David 1:11:51

I don't think it's wonderful. I think some others in who have the degree will argue that it's not wonderful. It's it's made me rip my hair out a few times. Yeah. But if you've been a fan of math, neither have been through that, so I don't blame you on that. But Penn State has a really great meteorology program. Even though I'm a Rutgers alum, I can recognize they have a very good program. You know, that certificate program sounds phenomenal. And you touched a little bit upon who it would benefit the most, but what are some other industries that could benefit from getting a certificate like that in meteorology?

John Kosak 1:12:30

You could use it for anything. You could use it for your own everyday life if you work anywhere in transportation, if you work in a trucking industry, if you work in a taxi industry, rail. I don't think that there's an industry that wouldn't benefit from it. One of the industries that they talk about there is sports. If you're somebody who works in sports or outdoor entertainment for that matter, and anything where weather is going to have any sort of an impact on what it is you're trying to do. I can't tell you. My mom ran some marathons for a while back when I was doing that on a regular basis. I can't tell you how many forecasts I put together for her races just so that she would what gear she wants to wear, and that sort of thing. It helped when I was doing mountain bike rides, figured out what I need to wear, that sort of thing. So it can help you in any aspect of your life and definitely in business.

Kyle David 1:13:27

Definitely a good program to check in. We'll link that as well in the show notes for anybody who wants to learn more about the Penn State certificate program. But we are starting to get to the point where we get to our second to last segment before our last fun section of our conversation. And I'm gonna call this the sunset segment. So we're gonna go back to that elevated weather station that you talked about earlier on in the podcast and get to watch the sunset talk a little bit about like some final points in our conversation. So, with that said, are there any things that we missed that we didn't get to cover that you want to talk about a little bit? Any myths that you want to bust about the weather and aviation worlds?

John Kosak 1:14:10

Oh, wear your seatbelt when you're on the airplane all the time, unless you're getting up to go to the bathroom. And I would tell you that if the seatbelt sign is on, hold it, unless you absolutely can't, because clear air turbulence is something that we're seeing a lot more lately, and it's exactly what it sounds like. You can't see it, right? You can be flying along, uh, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, you're experiencing turbulence. If you're lucky, it's just some little jiggles and everything's good. Not so lucky, people become projectiles, literally. And you're reading more about it, people getting hurt because they're walking around the cabin, or they're even just sitting in their seat, but they're not buckled in. And when an aircraft hits turbulence, I can't stress it enough. That's the big one for me. You want to connect it to weather, and that and that's it. You don't have to be flying through a thunderstorm, and no pilot in their right mind is gonna do that anyway, to encounter turbulence. It just yeah, that's the one that scares me.

Kyle David 1:15:31

Wear your seatbelts. There's a reason why they say wear your seatbelts on the plane.

John Kosak 1:15:37

No, I think that's it. Okay, good. I can't think of anything else.

Kyle David 1:15:43

Okay. Well, that's some good parting advice for our listeners.

John Kosak 1:15:47

This is for the part is we have people in Congress who are making bills to prevent chemtrails. Chemtrails are not real. It's contrails. Contrails are real. That's what happens when you have an engine that is burning at hundreds of degrees flying through airs that's anywhere between negative 50 and negative 60 degrees uh Fahrenheit. You get condensation, and it's not dangerous.

Kyle David 1:16:30

Chemtrails are not a thing, it's just clouds, it's just water people. Figured I'd mention that last bit because you know, take jab at that. But sun setting on our conversation, but it is not the end of our episode just yet. We have one more fun game for you, John, and that is the weather or not trivia. We've got a mix of weather theme, non-weather themed trivia questions for you based on your interests, and we'll say how you do for there. With that said, are you ready?

John Kosak 1:17:01

Okay, I'll give it a shot.

Kyle David 1:17:04

All right. This is whether or not your question is related to Red Wings hockey.

John Kosak 1:17:09

Yes, and that's sometimes fast.

Kyle David 1:17:13

Okay. All right. This is whether or not your question is related to Red Wings hockey. Which Red Wings player is famous for the Daitsukian Diek? A hockey maneuver that tricks the goalie into moving into the other side of the net and allowing the player to quickly fling the puck into the goal. Is it a Pavel Datsuk? B Brett Hull, C, Henrik Zetterberg, or D. Gordy Howie.

John Kosak 1:17:44

Pavel Datsuk.

Kyle David 1:17:47

Pavel Datsuk is your final guess? Yes. You are correct. It is Pavo Datsuk who is famous for that maneuver. Alright, this is whether or not your next question is related to the 1974 super outbreak. The 1974 super outbreak was a prolific outbreak of tornadoes across several states from April 3rd to 4th of 1974. Which of the following states did not see a tornado during this outbreak? Was it A. New York? B Indiana, C, New Jersey, or D, West Virginia?

John Kosak 1:18:27

I think it's gonna be Indiana.

Kyle David 1:18:31

Final guess is Indiana.

John Kosak 1:18:33

Yeah.

Kyle David 1:18:35

You are incorrect, it was New Jersey that did not see a tornado. Indiana had a good chunk of the activity actually. I see how you're going there. If you want, I can reword that question.

John Kosak 1:18:47

Oh, it's alright. My guess stands. I was trying to be too logical about it. I figured that since you listed three states on the east coast and one in the Midwest, I wanted to go with the Midwest because that made sense, but yeah. That's interesting. Okay.

Kyle David 1:19:02

Yeah, that outbreak was mainly over the West, and right. You sure you don't want to do another question in its place, or I can get one wrong. All right. This is whether or not your next question is related to cycling. What is the longest bike path in Michigan? Is it A Betsy Valley Trail? B Iron Bell Trail, C Huron Sunrise Trail, or D Little Traverse Wheelway.

John Kosak 1:19:35

Man, those are all up north, I think. What was B again? Iron Bell Trail.

Kyle David 1:19:42

I'll guess B. B is your final guess? Yeah. You are correct, it is the Iron Bell Trail that is the longest bike path in Michigan. The Great Lakes are no doubt the most iconic bodies of water when it comes to lake effects snow. But this other lake in the United States has been known to produce lake effects snow between September and May. Of these lakes, which one of these lakes is known for their own lake effect snow events? Is it A. Lake Powell, B Great Salt Lake, C Mono Lake, or D Caddo Lake?

John Kosak 1:20:24

I want to say the Great Salt Lake. I think that one's far enough north.

Kyle David 1:20:28

Great Salt Lake is your final guess?

John Kosak 1:20:30

Yeah.

Kyle David 1:20:31

You are correct. It is the Great Salt Lake that is known for its own snow event or lake effect snow events.

John Kosak 1:20:38

Yeah, no, the salt lake is the only one that makes sense.

Kyle David 1:20:42

Yeah, and there's a couple of other lakes too. One up in Montana, there's the Finger Lakes, of course, and then Lake Effect Snow is a lot of fun to see and be in.

John Kosak 1:20:52

I used to go riding my bike in Lake Effect Snow up in Traver City and loved it because you'd have snowflakes the size of tree leaves, and it was just so quiet.

Kyle David 1:21:04

And before we go to our outro, have you experienced thunder snow before in those Lake Effect snow events?

John Kosak 1:21:11

I don't think I have.

Kyle David 1:21:13

Would that be something on your bucket list?

John Kosak 1:21:16

Yeah, that would be really cool. I'm trying to remember if I've ever experienced that. I think I would remember that. Oh no, I have. I was in Canada in the early 90s. Yeah, I was in Canada and remember seeing the flash of lightning, and I was like, what was that? And then I heard the thunder during a snowstorm, and I was like, and this was before I even knew what it was. So yeah, thunder snow, it's cool because you're like, wait, why are we having a thunderstorm in the middle of a snowstorm?

Kyle David 1:21:57

Now you got to see you got to experience something even rarer, which is thunder lightning, the thing that causes the thunder snow. Not a lot of people can say they got to see lightning in a snowstorm. You, on the other hand, got to see the lightning. That's an incredibly rare experience.

John Kosak 1:22:12

Yeah, and that was the part that was like, wait, what's going on? Because at first you're like, I don't understand why there's this flash of light right now, and then you hear the boom, and you're like, Oh, that's what it is.

Kyle David 1:22:25

Now, is that the reaction you had, or is it more of like a Jim Cantori, like, oh my gosh, we got thunder snow?

John Kosak 1:22:31

I don't think I jumped like he did, but it was definitely like that's really cool. And I think I may have geeked out to some of the people around me and been like, Do you know what just happened?

Kyle David 1:22:45

The people who know certainly know the cool thing that you got to experience. With that said, that is the end of our whether or not trivia and the end of our conversation. But before we go, how can people stay in touch with you and all the work that you're doing in the aviation and weather worlds, John?

John Kosak 1:23:03

People should feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I've got a pretty good presence there. Always happy to connect with people and talk to people about my experiences, how I got to where I'm at, where I'm at now, and where I'm going, those sorts of things. LinkedIn's great for that.

Kyle David 1:23:20

And we'll make sure to link your LinkedIn in the show notes for people who go and potentially connect with you more about your aviation and weather experiences. That said, John, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast, and thank you to the listener for listening to the Everything Weather podcast. And we'll catch you on the next episode.