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Everything Weather Podcast
A conversational, educational, & educational weather podcast about everything weather. Exploring the world of weather, now every other Monday.
Everything Weather Podcast
David's Deep Dives: Why NOAA & NWS Are Important
In this first edition of David's Deep Dives, we dive deep into the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and the National Weather Service. We talk with several guests on what they are, why they are important to the weather world and other industries, and how cuts to NOAA/NWS can affect those areas and the public.
Featured Guests:
Andrew Markowitz, Energy & Digital Meteorologist
Matthew Cappucci; Meteorologist, Author, & Storm Chaser
Steven DiMartino, Private & Digital Meteorologist
Dr. Scott Weaver, Expert Weather & Climate Consultant
John Kosak, Certified Aviation Manager
Ashley Morris, Certified Emergency Manager
Tom Di Liberto, Meteorologist & Climate Scientist
Tabitha Bartoe, Communications PhD Student
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Have a question or comments? You can text us using the link above or email us at everythingweatherpodcast@gmail.com.
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About the Everything Weather Podcast
A weekly podcast where we talk with people about the weather world, explore and discuss everything weather and the many things that connect to it, and have a little fun along the way. The podcast is hosted and produced by Kyle David, a meteorologist and digital science content producer based in New Jersey.
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Hello and welcome to the Everything Weather podcast, where we talk with people about the weather world, explore and discuss everything weather, and have a little fun along the way. I'm your host, Kyle David, and this special podcast episode is the first David's Deep Dives where we dive deep together into different weather topics. In this first edition of David's Deep Dives, we're deep diving into the National Weather Service and its parent organization, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Specifically, we're going to be exploring the two agencies, why they're essential to you, and how the recent massive Layoffs and resource cuts to these agencies impact you and your communities. We're also here from a wide variety of people inside and outside the weather world on what the cuts to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the National Weather Service, could mean for them and their lines of work. And before we get into the deep dive, I have a couple of quick notes that I wanna talk about. First, while this episode will be different from the conversational episodes that have come before it, we'll still have two fun sections for you to enjoy and play along with since one of the primary parts of the podcast is to have some fun along the way while you're listening to everything about the weather. Second, this episode will not be diving into the politics of recent events. Even though they were politically motivated, this is not a political episode, nor a political podcast. Instead, we'll be objectively exploring what the two agencies are, why they are essential, and why the cuts could impact the weather world and other industries, as well as you, the listener. And third and final note, this episode would not have been possible without the incredible people that you'll be hearing throughout the episode. These people come from different industries inside and outside of the weather. While what you'll hear from them are their views alone, rather than the opinions of their respective employers, many other individuals and organizations inside and outside of the weather world have shared the views expressed by these individuals. That being said, thank you to Andrew Markowitz, Matthew Capucci, Stephen DiMartino, Dr. Scott Weaver, John Cossack, Ashley Morris, Tom DiLiberto, and Tabitha Barto for their time in making this episode happen. With all that out of the way now, let's get into the deep dive. Before we discuss why these agencies are vital and the recent events around them, let's first define the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and the National Weather Service. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or NOAA for short, is the leading scientific agency for anything related to weather, water, and climate. The National Weather Service is one of the most recognizable parts of NOAA. charged with monitoring, forecasting, and communicating weather conditions. I talked with Tom DiLiberto, a former NOAA meteorologist and experienced climate communicator, more about what the agency overall is and what the different parts of it are.
Tom Di Liberto:The national Weather Service is a component of NOAA. And NOAA, in general, its mission is to serve the public, but to help by providing the best weather, climate, and ocean information to the public. And the National Weather Service, those are the folks who are, they're making your forecast. They're forecasting for the entire country. They're the ones who run the weather models that. If you're in the weather community that you probably use all the time, there's the observation network too, as well. So if you pick up your phone and it says, oh, it's 65 degrees where you are, it might very well be a NOAA observation or an observation station that's getting ingested into the NOAA datasets that eventually go into our weather models. Also, when it comes to the Weather Service, if you ever had your phone blinking and blaring and it says tornado warning or whatever it may be, that warning came from a human being at a weather forecast office somewhere across the country that's run by the National Weather Service. They're situated all across the country, and the cool, the interesting and really cool thing about these local offices is that this isn't somebody forecasting for you from a thousand miles away, these are the people forecasting for their own communities, their own friends, their own family members, which is, I feel like, really makes it home that, like, these people who are forecasting for you are your neighbors, and I think it's an incredibly important aspect. They know their area better than anyone else. So, NOAA is Ocean and Atmosphere. We got the atmospheric side when we're talking about the Weather Service and also some of the climate and weather research that goes on in the Office of Oceanic and Atmospheric Research. But, the O part of NOAA is split into two parts. You have the National Ocean Service and then the National Marine Fisheries Service. So, the National Marine Fisheries, if you like eating American seafood, Thank the National Marine Fisheries folks, because they're the ones who are making sure that any fishery across the entire country is healthy. They do the research, and they do these trawl surveys out in boats. They say, oh wait, there's this much of population of this species, if it's fish or crab, whatever it may be. They set the quotas so that the next year you could be fishing, or maintain that this fishery will exist not just now, but a decade from now, and two decades from now. They're the ones who also It enforced the Endangered Species Act. It's like the North Atlantic right whale, for instance, off the east coast. They make sure that there still are right whales. So they try to maintain those species, as well as a whole bunch of other ones. You should thank them for having your food, if you like seafood a lot. Because they're the ones who make sure everything is A OK. The Ocean Service, in case you don't know, everyone's at the beach and look up their tide charts. Probably from NOAA. From the National Ocean Service. If you've ever been on a boat and need a nautical chart, from the National Ocean Service in NOAA. Curious about rip currents? Also, the National Ocean Service from NOAA. Heck, you should use GPS. The National Geodetic Survey is the oldest part of NOAA. It's in the National Ocean Service, and that's what basically tells you where everything is located, like, GPS wise. They're the ones who make sure that GPS is as accurate as it is. That's why the saying was that it handles from the bottom of the ocean to the surface of the sun, and it's a cheesy line, but it's so true when you realize if you're eating fish sticks from Alaskan pollock, NOAA was involved in that, which is pretty nuts.
Kyle David:NOAA was formed on October 3rd, 1970 within the U. S. Department of Commerce via a reorganization plan put forth by U. S. President Richard Nixon, which he proposed to serve the nation's need for, quote, better protection of life and property from natural hazards, for a better understanding of the total environment, and for exploration and development leading to the intelligent use of our marine resources. It brought together the Environmental and Science Services Administration, the most erect predecessor of NOAA. and a collection of the U. S. Coast and Geodetic Survey, the Weather Bureau, and the Environmental Science Services Administration Corps. Today, NOAA comprises of nine distinct but integrated services, up to 12, 000 employees, and almost 300 NOAA Commissioned Corps personnel. Noah's mission consists of three key points. One, to understand and predict changes in climate, weather, ocean, and coasts. Two, to share that knowledge and information with others. And three, to conserve and manage coastal and marine ecosystems and resources. However, that mission would begin to become jeopardized. On February 27th, almost 900 employees of NOAA were suddenly let go, with only, at most, a few hours of warning.
Tom Di Liberto:The one thing we had in common that we're all probationary employees, we're fired on February 27th. We got this kind of boilerplate email saying that as probationary employees we could be reviewed and that our services were basically no longer needed. Which is not the way you go about doing those things. Probationary employees, you have to have cause for firing probationary employees. You can't just say nah and just fire them all. But the proba it's not like someone who's Even just out of school, getting a Fed job is really hard these days. So a lot of people that you're, that got fired are people who were potentially working at the weather service or working at other places for years before getting the call to become a Fed. So yeah, it was a brutal time. And the weather service and The other part of the marine fishery side of NOAA, I think, were the two parts of NOAA that saw the most people fired. But it's also probably the fact that they're also
Kyle David:the biggest parts of NOAA. These employees were considered to be in probationary status, which means they're within one year from either their initial hire date into the government, or under one year of working in a newly promoted position. Because of this, some of the almost 900 employees who were suddenly terminated were new hires. One such example was former student intern and Ph. D. student Tabitha Bartow.
Tabitha Bartoe:I worked at the OSPO, which is our Satellite and Product Operations Office. And the operations facility that we have, we refer to it as NSOF. And we have so many teams there. Engineers, physical scientists, data scientists, analysts. A lot of us were lucky enough to have a year of our opportunity to work at OSPO and everything. So The interns that we had were in engineering, physical science, communication, and then we also had another one as well that was more on like the analyzing side, so that was really interesting. So we all had a different opportunity and different people who we worked with throughout the building. We're excited to be here, and we really want to know how can we make something great and improve the knowledge out in the public of NOAA. And OSPO, NSOF, whatever it may be. We, we went in, I went in to work as a regular day. Um, we were just working on everything. Had a great meeting about upcoming events and things that we were working on. And it was getting a little towards the end of the day. So some people began to pack it up, go home. And around 3. 30, 3. 43. One of the interns messaged and said, Hey, did you get an email? And I said, No, not yet. Why? And she replied that she was terminated. We actually had to, and two minutes later I ended up getting my email, but we had to report to our own supervisors that we were terminated. They weren't notified before us so it was Really difficult to go to your own supervisor that hired you and say hey, I'm not going to be here anymore And it was a roller coaster of emotions You didn't know what to think because you didn't think that it was going to happen as quick as it did So we had about an hour to figure out what we were going to do and go home. So it was As a Pathways intern, this is something that is very competitive for all of us. Like, even students that are listening to this, it's such a competitive opportunity to be a Pathways intern. Because this is essentially how you work your way into getting a permanent spot in the organization, or wherever else you may go. Being a Pathways intern is extremely important and a great honor to have for no matter your position. So it was really diff knowing that it's something that you've worked so hard for and you were so close to possibly getting into an organization with a permanent spot in the field that you're working for, only for that to just be gone within two or three minutes with an email.
Kyle David:But, like Tom DiLiberto, some were also employees who had worked a more extended time within NOAA but had recently been promoted to new positions. I was fired February
Tom Di Liberto:27th, and my probationary period would have ended on March 13th. So close, but so far.
Kyle David:They, as well as the almost 900 former NOAA employees, were told in an email from the Office of Personnel Management That, quote, they were no longer fit for continued employment because of their ability, knowledge, and or skills do not fit the agency's current needs. Which is somewhat contradictory considering some were employed only a few months before they were let go in this wide cut. And some others were in good standing with NOAA and the government for several years. By early March, it was confirmed that almost 1, 300 NOAA employees were abruptly laid off. Roughly 10 percent of the total workforce. However, this had not been the first time that layoffs and restructuring had occurred within the organization. One of the largest restructurings within NOAA occurred in 1988 as part of a program called the National Weather Service Modernization and Associated Restructuring, or NWSMAR, For short, NWS more evaluated the National Weather Service's current resources and structure to transition the National Weather Service into an efficient entity in the modern age. Specifically, it explored restructuring the office structure of the National Weather Service, refining operation procedures. and resolving implementation issues while not degrading the quality of forecasts, warnings, and other products from the National Weather Service. It also worked on phasing out old obsolete technology within the National Weather Service with new state of the art equipment without disrupting the services it provided. Before the NWS Mars implementation, the National Weather Service followed a two tier office structure. There were 52 higher tier forecast offices, with roughly one higher tier forecast office per state. The larger states would have more than one forecast office at this tier to break up the larger area. These offices would coordinate with each other and smaller local offices within their forecast area. Then there were 204 of these smaller weather service offices at the local level that were tasked with taking weather observations and issuing severe weather warnings. The staffing across both tiers of offices were a mix of roughly one thirds meteorologists and two thirds meteorological technicians. The key difference was that the meteorologists usually observed, studied, and forecasted the weather. Meteorological technicians generally maintained the weather equipment, helping the meteorologists collect weather data and assist in some weather forecasting. The NWS MAR proposed reconfiguring the National Weather Service office structure from its two tier system. To the currently used one tier system with one weather forecast office, assuming the responsibilities of both tier offices, this plan restructured the 52 regional weather service forecast offices and the 204 local weather service offices. into 115 regional weather forecast offices. With that reconfiguration, the NWS MAR also proposed shifting the staffing to have more degreed meteorologists and a smaller contingent of meteorological technicians. The modernization was successfully completed in 2000 at a total cost of approximately 1. 5 billion. 4. 5 billion dollars. Modernization had also allowed the widespread replacement of aging equipment with new technologies that improved weather observations and forecasting. These new technologies included the Next Generation Weather Radar or NextRAD. A network of upgraded weather radar towers across the United States, automated weather observing stations and systems to replace manual weather observations at the National Weather Service offices, upgrades to weather satellites, upgrades to computing power at the National Centers to boost weather prediction, and a new workstation for meteorologists that allowed for better integration of all weather data sources. at a more efficient communication between offices and to the public. While the NWS MAR led to the loss of some jobs within the National Weather Service, it also created new ones. It allowed for a more efficient system to observe, study, and forecast the weather, especially high impact weather events, increasing weather readiness and awareness to protect lives and property. Since then, there have been some conversations about restructuring staffing and reallocating resources from NOAA to other parts of the U. S. government. One of these conversations almost became a reality in 2013 when the furlough of nearly 12, 000 NOAA employees was being discussed to prevent a government shutdown. Earlier in 2013, the government was forced to reduce the NOAA budget by 7 percent for the 2013 fiscal year and freeze all hiring for the agency. In April 2013, furloughs were put on the table to close government spending gaps for the year. Later in the summer of 2013, closing some of the NOAA offices, which were key for weather and natural operations, was also planned to occur later that year. However, the planned furloughs and office closures were scrapped following a highly active stretch of severe weather, and were never brought up again. The NWS MAR that occurred in the 1980s and 1990s was a more than 10 year long process and was carefully done in segments to improve the National Weather Service and make it more efficient. However, the 2025 wave of layoffs to NOAA came swiftly and seemingly disorderly to several agency divisions, including the National Weather Service, parts of which were already understaffed. In 2023, the House Committee on Appropriations reported that less than 50 percent of the weather forecast offices in the National Weather Service were ideally staffed. This means that more than half of the weather forecast offices within the National Weather Service were staffed below ideal expectations to effectively complete their mission of monitoring, forecasting, and communicating weather conditions to the public.
Andrew Markowitz:The National Weather Service as is is highly underfunded and understaffed. You just have to find a way in terms of But you have 50 percent less people or whatever percentage less people at your office. In fact, it's estimated that about one in three offices in the central region are currently at critical stages of employment and they just have to find a way. But the issue is that at a certain point, things are going to break and with fewer people on staff in terms of both bodies and in terms of institutional knowledge. it becomes much harder to have things up and running. So you could have radar sites crashed, weather stations not working. You could have the websites going down because of the servers. And it's those things that, on the surface, those individual things might be minute, but they snowball and eventually become a much bigger problem.
Kyle David:That was Andrew Markowitz, an experienced energy and digital meteorologist, one of many meteorologists and industry experts utilizing NOAA's data, products, and services. Unfortunately, we're already seeing these seemingly small impacts that Andrew described crop up because of the cuts to NOAA's staff and funding. On February 27th, shortly after the NOAA cuts, NOAA issued a statement announcing the indefinite suspension of weather balloon launches at Kotzebue, Alaska due to lack of staffing. These launches profile the upper layers of the atmosphere, letting meteorologists see what is going on from the ground up. The data also gets fed into weather models that churn out forecasts for days and weeks in advance. While one set of balloon launches doesn't seem consequential, it limits our understanding of what's going on in the atmosphere. MyRadar and Capital Weather Gang meteorologist Matthew Cappucci describes this a little more and what the impacts could be.
Matthew Cappucci:Better data in means better data out. These models are supercomputers that essentially churn through all the data we put in, but if we're putting in less data or there are holes in the data, then there are going to be errors that propagate and grow over time. There have been so many times where a single weather balloon can prove instrumental. For example, when you're storm chasing in the spring or forecasting severe weather, sometimes a weather service in Norman, Oklahoma will launch an early afternoon weather balloon to sample the environment and it sometimes finds things that surprise us or it offers insight. As what's going on. I know it was I think April 18th, 2022 or 2023 when we weren't forecasting storms in Oklahoma and suddenly a weather balloon went up and we were like, wow, there's more energy than we thought there was and that afternoon they had like a dozen two dozen tornadoes across central Oklahoma. That's obviously an extreme example, but it goes to show you the importance of weather balloons in Kotzebue, Alaska. It's a very remote area. I've been there once actually on my way to Nome back in 2018. And it's a super remote area, there's nothing else nearby. You're not having weather stations every 20, 30 miles. You're having very sparse coverage across the state of Alaska. It is the final frontier. And losing that weather balloon is very problematic. It's like how Albany now, I just got a tip from a weather forecast from the northeast that the weather service in Albany is now suspending their 12Z balloon launch, their morning weather balloon launch, until further notice because of staffing issues. And that's the sort of thing that can mean less in the way of quality down the road.
Kyle David:And indeed, on March 7th, NOAA issued another statement saying that additional weather balloon launches would be suspended at the Albany, New York and Gray, Maine Weather Forecast Offices, again, due to a lack of staffing. Also, because of the lack of staffing, some weather forecast offices have had to cancel local education and outreach programs.
Tabitha Bartoe:The spotter trainings have been canceled. There have been volunteer positions with students that have been canceled across National Weather Service offices. It's It's really saddening. It's disheartening when so many people want to get involved in the weather and they want to do these things and they want to learn more, but there's just not enough people and not enough time right now for those things to start to go on.
Kyle David:Reports from spotters out in the field help meteorologists at National Weather Service offices determine what is going on at the ground, and it allows them to tweak their real time weather alerts and weather forecasts for the public. A lack of staffing has also posed issues in maintaining weather monitoring equipment. Steven DiMartino, a private and digital meteorologist, explains more.
Stephen DiMartino:Let's say, for example, a radar goes down, right? Uh, and because of funding issues, they don't repair it fast enough. So now you're using radars from that are further out. So as a result, you don't get as well defined analysis of, let's say, developing thunderstorm and that developing thunderstorm. Maybe developing a meso low that's close to forming a tornado. Beforehand, you can give warnings out really fast. Now you have to wait to see, is it developing? Because you're not getting as good of a read via the radar data that you have, which is limited. Also, changes to what your going forecast is. So, if I'm missing observational data for an hour or two, let's say in central New Jersey, right? And it's during a winter storm and we're expecting everything to go over the rain, but the temperatures are stuck below freezing. Being able to adjust the forecast because of that could be impacted if I don't have that data in time and not able to warn my clients, the general public, of those changes. Now, to be fair, because that's really important, we haven't seen those impacts yet. What could be an impact is, for example, releasing two of the pilots that fly into hurricanes. We saw how active it was last year. If we have an active hurricane season, and we don't have enough planes to go in to fly in there, what are they going to do to replace it? Are you going to use drones? Is that as good of data collection? How do you address those factors?
Kyle David:Impacts on keeping weather monitoring equipment timely and properly maintained, in addition to staffing shortages at National Weather Service offices. can also impact their ability to relay time sensitive critical weather alerts to the public.
Matthew Cappucci:I think back to November 4th of 2024, I'm in Oklahoma. They are one of the best, top notch forecast offices. I know most of the folks there, and they are, and this is not me just being nice, this is not me being platitudinous towards the community. There are a couple of weather service offices that are truly stellar. They're all pretty damn good. Huntsville, Birmingham, Jackson, Mississippi, and especially Norman are just absolutely top notch. And they missed several tornado warnings that night. Norman doesn't do that. And they did that night, and the reason was understaffing. And it goes to show you that if, like, the A list meteorologists, the top tier folks in their field at warning operations can understaffing issues, look at what's going to happen across the rest of the country, potentially during warning operations, if we're understaffed. 11 out of 38 offices in the central region are critically understaffed right now.
Kyle David:When we come back, we continue the discussion of how the cuts to NOAA and the National Weather Service affect the weather world, how these cuts affect other industries, and how they affect you, the listener. On this day in weather history. We revisit the unbanning of the word tornado in weather forecasts and communications. In the 1880s, John P. Finley of the U. S. Army Signal Corps, who handled weather forecasting for the United States, developed generalized forecasts on days when tornadoes would occur. when tornadoes were most likely. However, in 1886, the Army ended Finley's program. The Army then banned the word tornado from forecasts because the harm done by a tornado prediction would be eventually greater than that which results from the tornado itself. The thinking was that people would be trampled in the panic if they heard the word tornado and the fact that a tornado was possible. That stayed in place after the Weather Bureau, now the National Weather Service, took over forecasting for the Army. For several years, tornadoes were not explicitly worded as tornadoes. All the words and phrases were used instead of the word tornado to describe them in forecasts, communications, and weather reports. A tornado that wrecked. 52 large aircraft at Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma, on March 20th, 1948, spurred Air Force meteorologists to begin working on ways to forecast tornadoes and rethink the banning of the word tornado. The Weather Bureau also started looking for ways to improve tornado forecasting and established the Severe Local Storm Warning System. Center, which is now the Storm Prediction Center in Norman, Oklahoma. Meteorologists had to acknowledge the word tornado to improve forecasting and communications. And the ban on the word tornado fell on March 17th, 1952, when the new center issued its first tornado watch. To this day, the word tornado is still widely used in understanding the phenomenon as well as forecasting and communicating for it. And before we get back into the deep dive, here's a quick game of avoid saying the same thing as me, weather edition. I'm gonna give you five weather themed categories, and your job is to think of a word in that category that is different from the one I say. If you avoid thinking the same thing I think of for all five categories, you win. Ready? Let's start with category one. Name an extreme weather event. I'll give you a few seconds to think of a word. What I think of is blizzard. If you think of blizzard, I'm sorry, you lose the, avoid the same thing as saying as me. I'm sorry, you lose the avoid saying the same thing as me. Next category, name a type of cloud. I'll give you a few seconds. There's a lot of different clouds that you can think of. The one I'm thinking of is Cirrus clouds. If you think of a Cirrus cloud, I'm sorry, you are eliminated. Next category is name a weather instrument or tool. Quite a few of them if you think about it, but the one that I'm thinking of is Anemometer, used for measuring wind speed. If you think of anemometer, I'm sorry, you are out. Next category up is give a weather related phrase or idiom. There's a lot of them out there. Forecast related ones, non forecast related ones. The one I'm thinking of is Fairweather Friend. If you say Fairweather Friend, I'm sorry, you are out. And the last category, if you've made it this far, is name one of the four seasons. You got a 25 percent chance of picking the same thing as me. And I hate to say, if you pick Spring, you are out. So how did you do? Let me know how you did, and with that said, let's get back to the deep dive. While we've been talking about the potential impacts of these cuts to weather monitoring and forecasting, there are also impacts on historical records and research efforts, both of which help us to better understand the atmosphere and the environment. Dr. Scott Weaver, former White House Executive Director of Meteorology and Chief Science Officer of Climate Consulting, talks about this more.
Scott Weaver:You need very long, homogeneous data records, in other words, records that haven't really shifted too much. So there's a whole bre but most of my research, originally, did not deal with models. It was climate diagnostics. I was trying to understand how our climate varies and why, for certain phenomenon, let's say, naturally, irrespective of whether or not the climate is changing. That was the part that I started working, and I eventually did some work in climate change as well. And those data streams that we have for decades and decades are absolutely critical to understanding because you need many years of data to understand, Oh, why was this year so crazy? The climate change, is it natural variability? It's hard to know the answers to these things when you don't have long enough data to, or if there are interruptions in the data. The raw data going into all of these efforts to get a stable database that we can then use to just study even the past climate, forget about future, just the past, is so important that if you drop any of them out, even for a day, it's negatively impacting the database. Look, I know people are going to go, you miss a day, it's no big deal. That's probably true, right? It's probably true if you're looking at Annual data or monthly data or something, and you know, one data point somewhere, it's just, but it's the point that if we start saying that's okay, we don't need this, and we're starting to whittle away at these things, and they're just not important anymore, really doesn't make any sense.
Stephen DiMartino:It's also going to have an impact on cooperation of the data. Let's just take the Caribbean. Okay, we're the ones flying in there. It's not like they're flying them out of Cuba. They're not flying them out of Venezuela. They're flying it out of Florida or Texas. We're the ones collecting all the data. And no one else is really stepping up to do it. So, that's going to be a problem in the Caribbean. Like, hey, we got these island nations out there, and they're not getting the proper data that they need. And then they're going to be like, Oh, you're going to mess with us. Where now, we're not going to provide the data. So then you're going to get a data hole. Which is ridiculous. And that's just the Caribbean.
Kyle David:As Steven DeMartino just alluded to, These cuts can potentially impact international weather and climate collaboration. Both Tom DiLiberto and Dr. Scott Weaver elaborate further on this. The oceans and the
Tom Di Liberto:atmosphere don't stop at country borders. You can't run a weather model without global data. You can't. By its very nature, weather, climate, oceans, all of it has to be international. You have to collaborate internationally, otherwise you're gonna get a bunch of really bad weather models and results. Just like, really bad stuff. Take a look. We have those geostationary satellites up in space. We cover about half the planet. The other half of the planet is covered by geostationaries from Japan and from Europe. All of that, a ton of that information is what goes into our weather models as the initial condition, understanding of our atmosphere, some satellite data. We're getting that from Japan, right? We're getting it from Europe. Just like they're getting our information for running their models, to paint as complete a picture as we can get. If you hurt that system, or if you stop international collaboration, you stop giving data, that's going to lead to a lot of problems. But even beyond that, there are researchers across the globe who are working on these topics about improving weather models, about improving our understanding of extremes. And for in order to basically Improve the research, you need to have communication between scientists in the United States and scientists elsewhere. A lot of this happens at meetings, a lot of it happens at working groups related to broader international agreements, like with the World Meteorological Organization. But even now, the ability for U. S. scientists and the government to work with international colleagues is incredibly hard. A lot of meetings have been, their travel has been cancelled. Their ability to basically even just do what they did before is gonna be canc is cancelled. And again, it's such a self inflicted wound if your goal is to improve anything related to the science of the atmosphere.
Scott Weaver:And scientists, at least for the next few years, are barred from federal scientists are barred from participating in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Which is the global body that continually builds upon previous research to refine our understanding of how climate has changed in the past, what the impacts are now, and how that may change in the future depending on the climate. different scenarios of our socio economic development around the world, etc. That to me is a pretty important activity. I know it's often viewed in a political lens, but this is like, you're interrupting decades of momentum in refining these really critical scientific questions, and you're just taking the United States out. And again, I know we talked before about bringing politics into our discussion. It's hard to separate the politics from science sometimes and this is one of those areas where yeah If another president comes a few years, we can then rejoin But science is not like something that you start stop start stuff like that's not how it works science builds and evolves Continually and so any kind of interruption into the scientific enterprise whether it be and you're seeing it in the health and art in the sciences of the NIH and what have you now we're seeing climate in the NSF and FEMA can't talk about climate, and now the IPCC, the federal scientists, can't be part of that. It's not easy to just jump back in when you haven't been participating in something in four years. And they know that. This is part of the disrupt. And you can have arguments over money, and poli like, whether we should like, that's fine. There are legitimate arguments, there are disagreements, and legitimate points to have. About how we should spend our money in this country on science. I get that, right? Those are political perspectives and people don't always agree on that. But like I said, the longitudinal nature of research is such that interrupting it and destabilizing it even for a short period of time can actually have impacts for many years, potentially depending on what happens even decades to come.
Kyle David:And these cuts not only have impacts to NOAA's mission and to the weather world, they also have other impacts to other industries. I spoke with Ashley Morris, a certified emergency manager in the Mid Atlantic United States, on how emergency management relies on the high quality work that NOAA puts out, and what these cuts could mean to the emergency management industry.
Ashley Morris:Emergency managers on the local, state, and federal level highly rely on NOAA and the National Weather Service for weather forecasting support. They are our lead authority in terms of weather forecasting, issuing weather watches, weather advisories, weather warnings. And we lean heavy on the information on their websites, the outlooks they're giving us. Many of the offices actually do personalized briefings for local and state emergency managers to get us ready for weather that's coming in. Those conference call briefings they give the state, some of them actually deploy and will come to our emergency operations center and help give us radar analysis and literally information right at our desk of what's going on if we're responding to a hurricane or a tornado or anything like that. And then when we actually have severe weather or damaging weather, they help send additional reports. forecasts, observations, all that information to help us actually respond to it. And NWS is a huge asset to any kind of severe weather response and any kind of impact to the ability to forecast, the ability to issue warnings. or watches as well as the ability to actually give us video briefings and send us emails and answer our phone calls and do all that forecast support could really leave us in a little bit of a weather gap when we're trying to respond and keep our communities safe from severe weather. If we're not able to get accurate forecasts, if we're not able to get very timely up to date watches and warnings, that does impact the way that local governments and state governments resources and get our public safety agencies ready to respond and then sometimes actually respond if we're moving into the spring and we have tornadoes coming around and we're not able to get tornado warning information or forecast information. at an effective time, then we probably won't be able to brief all of our city staff, all of our county staff, all of our partners on the forecast. And then when the storm actually occurs and we don't get the warning on time, then no, we're gonna be delayed in terms of, you know, going out and doing damage assessments or maybe doing search and rescue. And then most importantly, with Noah, considering some of their coastal modeling and some of their research they're doing with coastal environment. It's out in the mid Atlantic, of course, coastal flooding and some of the coastal erosion and coastal impacts are a big concern for us along the Chesapeake Bay and also out in the Atlantic. And they make a lot of products that are helpful for that. Not only for short term response and just trying to get prepared for coastal storms and stuff like that, but also for longterm because many of us in emergency management are working on emergency planning, threat assessment. But more importantly, hazard mitigation, where we're trying to prevent future disasters from happening and trying to minimize some of the coastal erosion or coastal issues. And so, a lot of the mapping, the modeling, and a lot of that stuff on the NOAA side, and then satellites too, will definitely be missed if it was to go away or be impacted. And a lot of places definitely take advantage of that.
Kyle David:I also spoke with John Kosak, a certified aviation manager, on what the impacts would be to both the business and commercial aviation industry. There's going to be different
John Kosak:impacts. The business and commercial, those folks a lot of times operate in a higher level of the atmosphere than the general aviation folks do. They're flying in positive controlled airspace. And they're going to be more often than not controlled by air traffic control, right? So you've got the tower, the tracons, and then the enroute facilities, and then the FAA command center, which is where they connect the dots, if you will. The other facilities are all worried about making sure that. The aircraft are separated from each other and going where they need to go. The FAA Command Center was put together way back in, I think it was 2000 now, with the idea of having somebody manage the flows. So, during the period of time that I was working at the Command Center for the National Business Aviation Association, we saw the advent of the National Aviation Meteorologists, or NAMs. And these folks gave weather briefings to the specialists, the one who were looking at whether or not they needed to do a ground delay program, an airspace flow program, those sorts of things, whether or not weather was going to have an impact on the system that day. I can guarantee you right now that there's impacts on the system today because of where those storms are on the East coast. There's significant traffic that goes up and down the East coast between DC, New York, Philly, Boston, and Florida. Just like there's traffic that's going to go West out of there. We've got some of the just major airports up there, Boston, Philly, JFK, LaGuardia, Newark, Dulles, all these places where people connect. And you know, on a day like today. It's so important for the command center to know where that weather is going to develop when it's going to develop how severe it's going to be and probably most importantly when it's going to dissipate so that they can make the most efficient use of that airspace because they're going to lose a lot of it due to the weather and so to not have the best. possible forecast products to not have the best possible people there in the command center sharing that information in the route facilities. It makes it much more difficult to plan ahead. We all need access to that great weather information so that we can make decisions regarding the safety of flight. Some might argue that it's even more important to the general aviation. And the business aviation community who aren't flying in and out of the forecasted airports, United and American are flying in and out of Chicago. There's a terminal aerodrome forecast for that. They're going to be able to do that. They've got their own meteorologists on staff. That's how important weather is to look at that stuff. So for the people in the business aviation world who maybe don't have meteorologists on staff. The general aviation pilot who has to be his or her own meteorologist, you need that weather information to be able to transit the National Airspace System safely and efficiently.
Kyle David:And there are many other industries that utilize the data from NOAA and the National Weather Service. Fisheries
Tom Di Liberto:is a billion dollar industry and issues with that can lead to there being broad problems, but thinking about this through a weather and climate lens, there are a lot of big industries that rely on consistent, Well done, NOAA data. And they do not want uncertainty about that. Even if NOAA products are coming out, they don't want any broad thought that they might not. That uncertainty throws a wrench into the chains about how this all works. Think about the reinsurance industry, the insurance industry. They desperately rely on NOAA data to be able to make their rates for climate impacts, for weather impacts, right? Same thing with any sort of industry on food. Drought. Farmers, they want good forecasts and they want good knowledge about what's going on because we don't, do know, that a lot, is, relies on what the drought monitor that the NOAA and that the U. S. Department of Agriculture release, which can have a huge impact. So, these cuts, by their very nature, are going to hurt the
Kyle David:economy. So we return to the question posed by the title of this episode. Why are NOAA and the National Weather Service important? Specifically, why are they important to you, the listener? For one, the cuts impact their ability to monitor and forecast the weather and communicate critical, life saving weather information to the public.
Andrew Markowitz:If you compare the death toll to, say, the 1900 Galveston hurricane when we had very rudimentary weather prediction methods to 2024 of those hurricanes. Despite those storms being as intense or arguably more intense, death toll was substantially lower. So objectively, accurate weather forecasts save lives, and by having fewer staff, that makes it much harder to do so because of number one, the models not being as good, but number two, it increases the possibility of warnings being missed because of the additional strain on employees. So it's like, if you have half the people, Watching the radar during a severe weather outbreak. That means that it's more likely that something will be missed or something will be late. And again, you can tangibly see how that might impact various communities, including communities that are at higher risk because the national weather service goes out of its way. to reach these communities that many other people tend to ignore.
Tabitha Bartoe:Every forecast that you're checking, every time you look on your phone and you want to know the forecast, you're looking at the radar, seeing what's going on. Any hurricanes, you see the hurricane satellites that televisions have on their TV when they're broadcasting. Fire weather, all of that is tying back to NOAA and tying back to our satellites.
Kyle David:In turn, this affects how we respond to extreme weather events and how they impact everyday life.
Tabitha Bartoe:Weather is around us every single day, whether you want to believe it or not. Whether there's sunshine, tornadoes, hurricanes, you got to think about it.
John Kosak:The impact is you drive to the airport and then your flight gets delayed. And it's one thing if you're a single guy hanging out at the airport by yourself doing nothing. But if you're a family with kids, it's not fun.
Ashley Morris:Emergency managers and people who are in charge of making decisions for The public from weather related disasters cannot do it effectively without proper scientific weather data and weather forecasts and weather support.
Kyle David:The cuts also have economic implications that directly and indirectly impact taxpayers.
Stephen DiMartino:International trade includes being able to navigate storms when you're crossing the Pacific. You like your Amazon stuff? Guess what? It's stuck in a typhoon because it wasn't forecasted properly.
Tom Di Liberto:Oh yeah, I heard of like The NOAA budget is not very big compared to other things in the U. S. government. So the idea is, like, you're basically just trying to save, like a, you're scrapping the pot. This isn't gonna make any, this isn't gonna, like, solve the debt crisis. This isn't gonna that stuff. This is so minuscule. The
Andrew Markowitz:pennies that you are saving from these cuts ultimately is going to cost more in the long run due to the additional economic damage from those less timely warnings, those less accurate forecasts, and people. Are very likely going to lose their lives as a result.
Kyle David:And for those curious, how much the taxpayer pays for the budget of NOAA and all the incredible work that they do. Here's a little more on the calculations. I
Scott Weaver:did a quick back of the envelope. I Googled how many taxpayers in the U S I didn't use our whole population. I just want to see how much of a tax pay. If you do the whole population, it's more people. So the amount per person is going to be less, but I just wanted to see like when someone pays their taxes. How much of their annual taxes goes towards the National Weather Service every year and I came up with 4. 24 per year. Now people, I understand people may take this for granted because they just, weather forecasts have always been free, so you are paying for it through your tax dollars, but it's about the cost of a latte. Actually, I know lattes are more, the latte my daughter drinks is more expensive than 4. 24, right? She drinks three or four of those a week. I understand when you hear billions, how anyone can ever say that's not a big number. I get that. Right? Like in my family, we got a billion dollars like, wow, right? That's a, forget it. But in terms of the federal budget as a percentage, it's virtually nothing, right? And it's 4 and 24 cents per year for the American taxpayer to keep all 340 million of us as safe as possible. And so I just can't see. I can't see a situation where it's going to cost less than that if we privatized it.
Kyle David:And cuts to NOAA and the National Weather Service go down the road of potentially privatizing weather data, which would cost to the taxpayer more than if it were done through NOAA and the National Weather Service.
Matthew Cappucci:The most important point is that if you're an American taxpayer, you shouldn't have to pay for a tornado warning. You shouldn't have to pay for to be told that there's a hurricane coming. That information should be freely available to everyone and accessible to everyone.
Kyle David:Finally, these cuts ripple to other industries, including private industries, who rely on the products of NOAA and the National Weather Service.
Andrew Markowitz:One of the biggest misconceptions out there that I'm seeing is this idea that the private sector can just simply take over and would run more efficiently than the government can provide. And yes, I think that is true in some cases, but as a private sector meteorologist, I can tell you that is absolutely not the case. We heavily rely on NOAA. In fact, I would say more than just heavily rely on, we need NOAA in order to complete our processes.
Kyle David:And for those that are wondering why weather apps can't replace the National Weather Service and NOAA, well, I'll leave this here for you.
John Kosak:Everybody has an app on their phone now. They think, oh, I can just get the weather from my phone. Well, that comes from the National Weather Service information. AccuWeather is using National Weather Service information stuff. Apple Weather is using National Weather information. It's all coming from the National Weather Service. If there's no National Weather Service, then no, you can't get your weather.
Matthew Cappucci:Yeah, the data that goes into any weather app is basically the same. It comes from the National Weather Service. It's processed in different ways. Different people have different models. My radar has proprietary models that we use behind the scenes too. But the data coming in from weather stations, weather balloons, Radar, everything, comes from the Weather Service, and so if we're having a tougher time getting that data or if we're having a tougher time maintaining the systems that take in that data and assimilate it, then that's going to have repercussions that are wide reaching.
Kyle David:As of this recording, there are talks of even more cuts to funding and staffing for NOAA and the National Weather Service. Which would only further exacerbate the consequences discussed only time will tell whether that will turn out to be true or not That said here's some parting words and some advice from our guests on what you can do
Tom Di Liberto:The one thing I would say is that To recognize like any of the weather information you get is partly NOAA in some shape or form, whether it's on your phone, whether it's on TV, social media, in general, it's NOAA backed. And if you're someone who cares about a good forecast and does not care about people being treated this way, you've worked at NOAA for decades, the one thing people always ask me, like, what can we do about it? And I would say just Talk, call your representative. Don't care what party. Call them. Tell them you care about it. One thing is that weather is apolitical. It should be apolitical. No one at NOAA and the Weather Service has ever asked, who did this county vote for? Before giving them potentially life saving information or data or resources. Like, never. No one cares about that at NOAA. We don't look at that. We just want to make sure that those people are safe. It's apolitical in that sense. I just want to make sure you're safe. And that's one thing I also want people to know, like the Weather Service, there are people of every political stripe. Within the web service and within Noah. Um, but the one thing we all agree on is that there's a core mission to help people. Um, so yeah, talk to your, talk to people, talk to friends even if they don't understand why it's so important. Just get people to understand and then yeah, don't be afraid to tell your state, old town, whoever it may be, that you care about it.
Andrew Markowitz:This is something we cannot emphasize enough of how serious this is and something I've been doing is I've been making this known on social media and contacting various representatives on both sides of the aisle, Democrat, Republican, and trying to make them aware of the issue.
Ashley Morris:As an emergency manager who's worked multiple different weather related incidents, I have been in cases where I didn't have flood gauges or I didn't have as much data as I wish I did. And when you're in the blind, you really do feel like you have to guess, and that's not what we want. Our emergency management professionals to have to do because we want to make sure that we're putting our residents first and that we're putting lives first before anything else. So just want to give a big thank you to our National Weather Service meteorologists, and I really appreciate all the service that they do just with disaster assistance and forecasting.
Stephen DiMartino:Don't let this rob your future, okay? It's scary. Life is scary. All this stuff is going to happen. The question is, how can you evolve? How do you evolve to become a better meteorologist, a better person, a stronger person? Because the only way you do that is by going through tough times. I've been there. I had a point where I had no job, nothing. I built everything from scratch. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's fun. But you have a choice. If you love this, you love what you do, go for it and don't let anyone stop you. Don't let fear Take hold of the conversation. There's going to be people who are like, yeah, cuts. They don't understand. They're not bad people. Okay. So I'm seeing that online a lot on X and Facebook. People may not understand. I don't know what the process is. They may not understand. So if you're going to have a conversation for the general public, be calm. Say, Hey, look, I get what you're saying. You love your app. But guess where that app is getting its data from this model and you can show them and then it hits them and then they Start up. That's not good. And then that's how you get a conversation going Just there's gonna be a lot of rumors out there Wait, see how all this evolves and then trust me once something happens that is not good for the economy Things this is gonna flip by itself. So just Take a deep breath. Understand this has happened before. History is a pain.
Tabitha Bartoe:Everybody is very strong, very wise, very professional, and we're going to get through it. As much as we want to think those negative thoughts in our mind, we're very lucky and happy that we had the opportunity to work with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. And everybody that has worked there has just felt like a family. I think if you asked anybody at the organization, They will go on for hours telling you about how much they love their job. And even those who were terminated like myself and about hundreds of other individuals that were let go. We can tell you exactly how much we loved our job and how much we love Noah. So I think listening to their stories and looking at the future and also hoping that we can get through this and maybe we can come up with different ways. that are more efficient in communicating and educating the public with weather. That's something that we'll be looking at, but I think for now, kindness is something that's very important and also understanding what's going on is very important as well.
John Kosak:I think that we need to be a little bit more honest with ourselves about looking at what we really need versus what we don't need and whether it's something that affects everybody every day. There's all kinds of stuff that goes on there, but for me trying to make sure that my family stays safe Occasionally, there's comfort in knowing the National Weather Service is there. Over my 25 years in aviation I've had the opportunity to go to the National Weather Service Training Center in Kansas City, Missouri I've had the opportunity to visit some of the center weather service units. I've worked with the NAMS in the command center These are all people who are doing something that they love and that they are, I think it's a mistake to lump everybody into this. Oh, they're just lazy people costing us money. No, they're not costing us money. I've seen in several different places the return on the investment for the dollar invested into the National Weather Service is a return of 73 back to the country in saved lives and material as far as. Preventing damage or other things. I would suggest that it's higher than that. Cause you can't measure the accidents that don't happen in aviation. You can't measure the accidents. Don't don't happen in Marine, the people on the water who get out of the way because of these forecasts. No, it's not cheap, but I think the expense of not investing in this is going to cost us more in the long run.
Scott Weaver:And if this gets on the air, just to. Let all my friends in the federal government know that, uh, we're all thinking about them and regardless if they keep their jobs, they still deserve to be treated with respect and dignity while they're carrying out those jobs. And in fact, that's also something that's efficient. Who would you rather have carrying out their jobs? Someone who feels valued and respected in the workplace or someone who feels like they're being insulted daily on Twitter while their friends and potentially them are being fired, right? Which two workers would you want in your organization? I'll leave it up to your viewers to answer that question for themselves.
Kyle David:And with that, this concludes our deep dive into NOAA and the National Weather Service and why they're essential. I hope that you have found this discussion insightful. I definitely did in talking with some of the people about NOAA and the National Weather Service. I learned a lot of different things about the different areas of the weather industry. And then also other industries as well for some of the other industry folks that I've got a chance to talk to. And again, thank you again to our featured guests, Andrew Barkowitz, Matthew Cappucci, Stephen DiMartino, Dr. Scott Weaver, John Kosak, Ashley Morris, Tom DiLiberto, and Tabitha Bartow for their time in making this episode happen. It really would not have happened without their time and their dedication and their passion for talking about this topic. And before I get into the outro and whether or not trivia, I just want to say that NOAA and the National Weather Service They've provided such an incredible service, not just to the weather community, but to society and without them, my love for the weather would not be possible because of all the tools that they produce for meteorologists, for people who are passionate about the weather. So if you really do support NOAA and the National Weather Service and their mission, please advocate for them on social media, talk to your local representatives and just get the word out there on what. And if you have any questions for our featured guests or want to hear a little bit more about them, their work, you can email everythingweatherpodcast at gmail. com for more details. That's everythingweatherpodcast at gmail. com. And. Before we get into the last segment of Whether or Not, please consider sharing the podcast with anyone you know and leave a review on your favorite podcasting streaming platform. It not only helps me improve the podcast and bring you even better content on Everything Weather, but it also helps grow the podcast. Now, let's get into that last segment of Whether or Not. If this is your first time listening to the podcast, Whether or Not is a fun trivia game I play with my guests at the end of our conversations. That tests our, that tests their weather and non weather related trivia knowledge. This time around though, you are going to be the one that's playing it. So I've got two weather themed and two non weather themed multiple choice trivia questions. And let's see how you do. Question one is related to tornadoes. What is the name of the scale used to measure the intensity of tornadoes? Is it A, the Richter Scale, B, the Saffir Simpson Scale, C, the Fujita Scale, or D, the Buford Scale? I'll give you a couple of seconds to think about the correct answer. Again, the answers are A, Richter Scale, B, Saffir Simpson Scale, C, Fujita Scale, Or D, Buford scale. Alright, time's up. The correct answer is C, Fujita scale. And let's go to the next one. This is a non weather related one up next. It's related to geography. What is the largest desert in the world? Is it A, the Gobi Desert? B, the Sahara Desert, C, the Antarctic Desert, or D, the Arabian Desert. I'll give you another few seconds for this time around. Again, the answer choices are A, Gobi Desert, B, Sahara Desert, C, Antarctic Desert, or D, Arabian Desert. Alright, time's up. The correct answer is C, the Antarctic Desert. You may have recognized that one from one of our earlier episodes with David Tedesco. If you haven't listened to that one, shameless plug, go and listen to that. It was a lot of fun having him on. Alright, and it's a lot of fun having everybody else on. Just saying that. All right, going back to the whether or not trivia now, next question is related to air masses. What is the term for the boundary between two different air masses? Is it A, a front, B, a ridge, C, a trough, or D, a jet stream? I'll give you a few more seconds with this one. Again, the answer choices are A, a front, B, a ridge, C, a trough, or D, a jet stream. Alright, and your time's up. The correct answer is A, front. Describes the boundary between two air masses. All right, this is the last whether or not trivia question for you, and this one is related to pop culture. Which TV series features the characters Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen, and Tyrion Lannister? Is it A. The Witcher, B. Game of Thrones, C. Breaking Bad, or D. Vikings? I'll give you a few seconds. I'll read them again. The answer choices are A. The Witcher, B, Game of Thrones, C, Breaking Bad, and D, Vikings. Alright, and your time's up, you're, the correct answer is Game of Thrones. And with that, that brings us to the end of the Whether or Not Trivia. And the end of this podcast episode. Again, if you enjoyed it, please leave a review on your favorite podcasting streaming platform. And with that said, thank you to all the featured guests for their time on this. And thank you to the listener for listening to the Everything Weather podcast. And we'll catch you on the next episode.
